Joined: Jan 14, 2012 Posts: 296 Location: GAR4AGE DEFEND,USA
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:49 am Post subject: S13 Suspension/Brake Upgrade for RA/TA4x!!!
Hello ladies and gentlemen of Classic-Celica. Today I will be taking you on the endeavour of seeking more efficient and powerful stopping power for our 2nd generation Celica auto car. This set up is budget minded while being a very potent, nice upgrade. Whether it's used for street use or track! (Having fabrication/welding experience will help too).
I will be covering S13 to RA/RA4x first and then MX62/S13 to RA/TA4x, both offer a wider track, S13 offers 50mm and Mx62 60mm.
Here is what you will need to get this project enroute!
-Silvia/240sx/200sx S13 (front) hubs, discs and calipers
-Silvia/240sx/200sx S13 front coilover units
-RA/TA4x pillow ball top hats or AE86 which will require modifying the inner most hole where the top hat mounts)
-Lower Control Arms (LCAs) to suit RA/TA4x, since you can not utilise stock LCAs as the balljoints are different, you will need to modify one.
-RA/TA40 tie rods, I recommend buying new ones to refresh them up. You could also use MX73 inner tie rods with Silvia/200sx S15 outer tie rods. There is a variation of combonations, so you can decide. However our example will be using RA/TA4x tie rods. Another route would be MX62 LCA with AW11 rack end or S13 LCA with MX83 rack end.
Your first step is to sort out lower control arms. There are two methods of doing this. Cut and shut AE86/S13 arms together to make a single arm with the S13 balljoint. As S13 arms are much longer then stock units and you will find the massive track/camber is excessive for most of your auto cars or you can cut the end off an S13 arm and then weld plates in there to make a box section, then weld a nut behind the plate, rosejoint it with another nut on the front of the plate for adjustability.
Lower Control arms, shows the redrilled holes.
Now once you have your LCAs sorted out, you need to redrill two holes in the control arm for the castor rod to mount to. The sway bar will go into one of the existing holes for the S13 castor rod, you do not need to redrill for this.
Once you have done this bolt up your LCAs to the cross member as you normally would, then fit your RA/TA4x pillow ball top hats to the S13 coilovers and fit to them like so.
Once that is done, you need to remove the stock tie rods by undoing the 14mm nut on the clamp. Then place a 14mm spanner on the rack end while turning the tie rod counter-clockwise, on some cars you may find this to be very tight. In case of that use another spanner ring on the balljoint to act as a lever. Once it is off, you can bolt up your fresh RA/TA4x ones on.
Now you are ready to bolt the hub onto the control arm. Place the hub onto the LCA ball joint and then do it up, put the tie rod ball joint into the S13 hub steering arm and then do both up tight, be sure to use cotter pins also.
Once you have done this you can then bolt the S13 coilover units onto the car. Bolt the camber tops into the strut tower first, then bolt the two mounting bolts to the hub. I suggest grabbing a decent sized breaker bar as this should both be very tight. You will notice that when they are loose there is some freeplay in the top bolt. Pushing it back and forth will effect camber as such. In order make it easier to adjust and equalise on both sides. Push the coilover all the way back and then do up tight.
okay, so now everything is bolted in, make sure that the sway bar bolts into the suitable hole, and that everything is done up tight.
All that is left to do is brake lines. This is the easy part as you can use S13 lines provided you undo them from up the top of the wheel arch.
Bleed the brakes get a wheel alignment and away you go.
Why do this conversion?
-larger range of coilovers available for s13
-stronger wheel bearings
-lots of lock available
-ability to further set up the car to increase roadholding and handling.
Referred from Toyomods.org.au
Here is MX62/S13 to RA/TA4x/AE86 (same suspension as our RA/TA4x's) I'm just going to copy this one as I'm on a computer and need to go.
I fitted up some S13 susp to a sprinter (for fitting to an RA23 look at JonRA23's post below). The hardware we used was:
Standard AE86 strut top
HSD HR S13 coilover
S13 hub/steering knuckle
We fitted both MX62 and S13 LCAs (60 and 50 mm longer than AE86 respectively). And 15 by 6 (normal Toyota-ish offset) and 15 by 7 (+12) wheels. Both sets of wheels has 195/50/15 tyres on them.
Now from the factory the S13 coilovers have some camber adjustment in one of the two mounting bolt holes (see the test rig below). We checked with camber at both max and min possible.
Fitting the MX62 arms showed that the stock caster rod and swaybars mount holes wont be able to be used. However the chassis mount slots in perfectly and looks suspiciously like the bush is identical to the AE86 inner bush
So it looks like either arm can be used. Both need slight modifications to work. With wide wheels, the track of the MX62 arms will be silly. However the S13 arms need body mods or custom crush tubes to work. Also please dont ask what camber was exactly, this was just a mockup and we couldn't measure it.
Also while were on the subject here is RA23 fitted up with S13.
You'll need S13 top hats, coilover units or strut/spring combo and spindle, standard S13 strut springs will NOT fit in RA23 tower, instead of wasting time hunting for springs you can just use coilovers.
stock Lower control arms
S13 Ball joint should press into stock LCAs, both measure at 40.22 press fit.All bolt up other than slight elongation of camber top bolt holes, about 1.5mm.
Gives 2.5 degree negative camber with S13 adjustment all the way in and no camber tops. (10mm in at top over a 400mm rim diameter).
Gives a 20mm increase in track, (+30mm per side for LCAs, -20mm per side balljoint to rim face)
Hope everyone enjoys! I resourced the a lot of the information from Toyomods.org.au, so thank you to everyone there!
Joined: Jan 14, 2012 Posts: 296 Location: GAR4AGE DEFEND,USA
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:05 am Post subject:
I referred this and edited some paragraphs, so not all is to my credit. Big thank you to Simon at TM.au though! I will follow this with more pics, such as the box sectioned LCAs with S13 end, I'm probably going with the MX62/3 LCA, 60mm track width gain would be fantastic!
Also will follow wheel figment pictures with this set up!
Cheers everyone and enjoy! Remember, not a bolt on project. It requires slight modifications and some expierence if you plan to do this yourself, I have yet to do this but my plan will be box sectioning up some MX62/3 LCAs and pairing them up with GPSports Super Angle steering arms. _________________
From reading this, it would seem that the S13 balljoint fits the RA2x LCA. Am I reading this right? If so, just one more option for 5 lug conversion if so inclined(hint, starion rims anyone?) The 300ZX stuff just bolts up to the S13 stuff...
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:14 am Post subject: Bump steer
Hi your readup is very good. i had a question:
Do you have any bump steer with this configuration?
My mechanic wants to change my engine front suspension Ta22 to a A21 Cefiro/laurel front suspension which from my research is basically the same front suspension as a s13 or r31 is this right?
also im verry worried it will change the way the car handles and have problems with bumpsteer as its for a totally different car.
also some people who do this swap to an ae86 which is similar to a ta22 celica say that the original suspension setup is better and they have problems with bumpsteer or the power steering gets harder to turn as you get to full lock.
Joined: Feb 08, 2012 Posts: 1705 Location: Beaverton, OR
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:24 am Post subject:
The biggest problem/cause with/of bumpsteer comes from different steering arms, and/or the change in control arm length, either/both of which change the "Ackerman angle" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry - the relationship in steering ratio between the front tires (tow-in / tow-out) and rear axle in turns.
BELIEVE ME! Been there, done that, and it makes for extremely unsafe driving depending on its severity, but at a minimum can make handling worse. Don't get me wrong - I'm not condemning this mod, just saying make sure that all is correct with the alignment before aggressively hitting the street or track! _________________ '81 Corona wagon - Weber, Cannon, MSD, Thorley, Magnaflow cat, 2.25" mandrel bent, Dynomax Bullet, Borla Pro XS, RA6x front suspension, Cressi Big Brakes, Mk II Addco, T3 RCAs & camber plates, coilovers, SW20/Camaro AGXs front/rear, all urethane
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